During our lengthy trip to Home State, we were able to spend a bit of time with some good friends from Southwest College Town. On the way to Home State, we visited Solon and Megs They have three children, two girls and a boy, and Archer and I are their youngest daughter's godparents. Likewise they are Bear's godparents. While we were together, I observed some very key differences between their girls and our boys (their son, whom I will call Ringo because he loves drums, just turned one, so any differences I noticed between him, his sisters, and our boys I'm going to attribute to age). The key differences are fairly expected. Solon and Megs's girls (whom I will call Aurora and Belle, in honor of their favorite princesses) are "quieter" and "calmer," but they also seem to listen better. If Megs wanted Aurora, the eldest, (to Solon and Megs, if you're reading this, yes, I know these are totally lame pseudonyms, so you don't need to comment on the lameness) to do something, she asked, and more often than not, Aurora complied. Similarly, if Solon needed Belle to do something, she complied, with only one exception that I recall.
In contrast, Archer and I find ourselves asking Wild Man and Bear to do the same thing over and over again. For example, if I want Wild Man, who is about 4 months older than Aurora, to get dressed, I say, "Wild Man, here are you clothes. Please get dressed." He may take off his PJ bottoms as soon as I make the request, but before putting on his shorts, he gets distracted and starts playing. I repeat the request, and completely absorbed in his imaginary world of who knows what, Wild Man ignores me. I repeat the request a third time, and this time he may take off his PJ top. Once that is off, he recalls the joy of being in his underwear and proceeds to perform the underwear dance for about 3 minutes. I remind him again to get dressed, and usually by now, I'm starting to lose my patience. Wild Man may pick up his shirt and toss it across the bedroom. At this, I'm getting angry, so I raise my voice and tell him to come to me. I then hand him each piece of clothing while he puts in on. Only then is he dressed. This, frankly, is a good morning. Bad mornings include at least one trip to time out for Wild Man for not listening. Bear is slightly more willing to get dressed, but then he is just two. Unlike Wild Man, he is not able to dress himself. It can, however, be a bit of a wrestling match to get him to stand still long enough to get clothes on him.
While we were with Solon and Megs, I watched Megs dress Aurora and Belle. Megs said, "Aurora, here are your clothes. Please put them on." Aurora said something like, "I'd rather wear this shirt, Mommy." Megs said, "Ok, now please get dressed." And without saying anything else, Aurora did. Belle had to be asked twice, but then she isn't quite three. Whereas it took me about ten minutes to get Wild Man and Bear dressed, Aurora and Belle were dressed in under five minutes. I also noticed that Megs never lost her patience (I lose my patience a lot), and she didn't seem frazzled at all. Aurora and Belle listened to their mother and did what she asked. I began to wonder if I was doing something wrong.
Fast forward to the end of our trip. We spent a day and night with some other dear friends from Southwest College Town, who, by virtue of the academic job market, now live three hours from our parents. Like us, Supadiscomama and Harrogate have two boys. Captain and Climber (names that reflect their eldest son's love of pirates and their youngest son's propensity to climb up Supadiscomama) are 3 months older than Wild Man and ten months younger than Bear, respectively. As with Ringo, I'm not including Climber in any observations because of his age. In the time we were with them, I observed that Supadiscomama and Harrogate, like Archer and me, often had to repeat their instructions to Captain. While he occasionally seemed to chose not to listen as an act of defiance (as does Wild Man), more often than not he just seemed too wrapped up in what he was doing to focus on his parents' instructions. Like Archer and me, Captain's parents lost their patience and, after asking him to do something at least four times, sent him to time out for not listening. Throughout the visit, both Wild Man and Captain struggled to focus on directions and to listen, but several times both did exactly what they were asked to do without hesitation or question. Following our time with Supadiscomama and Harrogate, I began to wonder if girls just listen better than boys, especially at this age.
Since our return to CU Land, I've been thinking about this question a lot, primarily because some days I am literally at my wit's end. When Wild Man doesn't listen, for whatever reason, I find myself losing my patience, as does Archer. We both end up raising our voices, threatening, and taking things away all in an attempt to get Wild Man to do what we're asking. We've tried a reward system, and that has worked with some success. But we both think that at 4 1/2 there are some things Wild Man should be able to do without a reward--like getting dressed and brushing his teeth. So at the end of most days, we're both annoyed with our child, and we're both feeling like horrible parents. We've talked about this endlessly, and we've tried various things, including explaining consequences, giving warnings, etc. No matter what we try it seems like we end up raising our voices and threatening, and in turn, Wild Man is now raising his voice at Bear. So we've only succeeded in teaching him to yell at his little brother. I feel like what we're doing just isn't working. And, while Archer would argue that I'm overreacting, I feel like we're failing as parents, at least in this particular area. Moreover, despite some research on the topic, I'm left with lots of questions and virtually no answers. Are boys different than girls (which, ultimately, really isn't the point)? What techniques are more effective helping boys learn to listen? How can we help Wild Man and Bear to focus and listen without resorting to yelling and time outs? Or are we simply expecting too much from our children, Wild Man especially?
15 comments:
We are absolutely at our wit's end with Captain. He's in trouble all the time at preschool and at home. I feel pretty certain that the problem is inconsistency on our part. We're going to try to put the plan outlined in _Setting Limits with Your Strong-Willed Child_ by Robert J. MacKenzie. The scenarios described in the book are so familiar, it's as though the author is describing Captain, who is *the* definition of the "strong-willed child." Captain and Wild Man have always been well-matched, which, in some ways, makes me feel better (because Captain isn't some anomaly).
As for Aurora, Belle, and Ringo: Harrogate and I were both envious of Megs's and Solon's ability to take their kids to a lovely outdoor musical performance. In the photo they shared, all three kids were sitting calmly on a blanket. If we were to take Captain and Climber to such an event, one of us would be chasing Captain around, while the other would be chasing Climber. So, it wouldn't be fun AT ALL.
Ok, so I'm not a parent but I wanted to weigh in. I'm not entirely sure it's a gender thing because I remember a couple we used to know that has 2 girls. Now, one would have been too yong for comparision, but the other was not a good listener at all. Whether it was flat out defiance or just busy playing, she did not want to do what her parents did. With that particular couple inconsistency was the problem (IMHO) as mom diciplined in one manner and dad did something completely different.
I know it's not the same, but we aren't consistent with how we are with our cats and it actually does make a difference in their behavior. Sometimes, out of exhaustion (they are terrible at night) we just give in, and I know that that doesn't help us out.
S, thanks for sharing. I will definitely look into this book.
RL, first, there is no need to say "I'm not a parent, but . . ." I value your opinion. Consistency is definitely a big thing. I do feel like we're consistent with Wild Man, but there are definitely moments, especially when we were out of town, where we gave in just to avoid a big drama.
I also feel like part of the problem is that neither Archer nor I have the skills to keep our cool. Not to blame it on our own parents, but it isn't as though either of us have the best models for this. Does the fact that we're trying count for anything?
Yes it counts! I keep reminding my husband (and myself really) that each generation's goal is to do better than the previous one. So my mom and dad tried to do better than their parents, and we're to try to do better than them. So the fact that you're aware and tryig speaks volumes. And when Wild Man and Bear grow up, they will try to do better themselves.
Sorry for my qualifer. Husband and I have actually flad out been told we're not able to speak b/c how would we know? But I do spend a lot of time observing..and well sometimes I can see things people "in" the situation might not. I'm sure I'm a little hyper-sensitive to the whole thing (I'm also "not a real woman" because I haven't had a kid, and should we adopt, that would still apply b/c I didn't give birth. People are stupid.)
In our house, we seem to alternate who is the patient one. If I see him flipping out on the cats' bad behavior, I can usually step in and be patient. I imagine that will hold in the future too...
Sorry for the long comment!
Archer and I also tend to alternate who is patient. That makes us a better team, I hope. If I'm about to lose it, he steps in and vice versa. It is just difficult to figure out how to help my child be the best person he can be while I'm still working on being the best person I can be.
As a parent of three girls, each of whom listen, obey, and/or follow directions with varying regularity, I definitely don't think their ability to do so has any link to their sex. Each child has a different personality, and their behavior patterns were somewhat established in toddlerhood. Hannah was an unbelievably obedient toddler and young child. I rarely had to ask her more than once to do anything. Eliza, as a toddler, was pretty good about listening and following directions as well. Now that she's four, I've noticed she is a bit less obedient, but we're addressing this issue right now for the exact reasons you describe. We don't want to contantly yell, her to always be in timeout for not listening, or us eventually losing our patience (or, in Hubby's case, his temper). Amelia is a completely different story. She's two, so I think she's still in a place where we have the ability to effectively shape her willingness to listen better. Many times, she'll blatantly tell us "No" when she's asked to do something. Other times, if she's asked very nicely and she sees her sister doing the same thing (i.e. picking up books or putting trash away), she'll happily obey.
I've had my share of frustrations with Eliza's increasing unwillingness to listen. I purposely say unwillingness rather than inability because I do think she's making a conscious decision *not* to do what we've asked most of the time. What I'm trying now is difficult and time-consuming, but I've seen some progress. Basically, instead of repeating a request, I ask once and if she doesn't obey, then I stop what I'm doing immediately, walk over to her, make sure she's looking at my face, and I repeat the request--nothing more. She has the immediate choice of obeying or disobeying. If she chooses the latter, then there is a consequence. My goal is for her to learn that we simply *will not* keep asking her to do something (we're doing this for Amelia, too, but with a bit more age-appropriate expectations). For us, it's become a bad habit to simply keep asking, over and over, until we lose our patience, get angry, and make the situation even worse. It makes us frustrated at each other, also, and we don't want the kids thinking this is the best way to parent OR the best way to interact with each other as a husband and wife.
Ultimately, consistancy and perserverance go a long way. It may take trying several different techniques, and it definitely takes a conscious effort to change current habits...I occasionally catch myself slipping back into the asking-five-times-then-screaming method, especially when I'm in the middle of cooking dinner. But, I feel so much better, as a Mom, when I see things improving as a result of us taking the time to stop what we're doing and deal the situation in *that* moment.
I didn't mean for this to be so long...but I dont' think you're expecting too much from your kids. That said, we're responsible for setting the boundaries. If they're used to being asked 5 times before they listen, then they'll wait until the 5th time. On the other hand, if they learn that there will be consequences if they don't listen on the second try (or whatever the limit is), I think they'll eventually start following directions as soon as they're asked.
Of course, I could always be wrong...I'm not done raising 'em yet :)
I've got about a million and a half things to say here. First, rl, don't even get me started on the Real Women Give birth thing. I've done both, as you know, and I am no less Ringo's mommy because of his situation. If I (or you) opted to have no children, we'd be just as womanly, just better rested! People are senseless if they try to make childbearing some authenticity test.
Anyway, M. (and, by extension, s.), I would honestly BEG you not to be impressed with or jealous of us, of all people. We had a lovely time at the symphony, but left halfway through because the girls were ready to melt into puddles. Ringo is scared of grass, so keeping him on the blanket was a little more like keeping him hostage.
And, yes, Aurora and Belle are, for the most part, great listeners. Do they also cry, fight, and emotionally manipulate each other about every 25 seconds? Sure they do. Do I lost my cool and/or yell? Yes, especially when I don't sleep enough. So, just about every day.
In fact, solon and I have been struggling lately to be thankful for the great things (and people) we've got because we spend so much time putting out fires. So I do think that it often looks better from the outside in. (And, as a side note, thank you for reminding me of the great things. I'll try not to forget for at least half an hour before I stress out and yell at someone!)
Yesterday, I spoke with a social worker about some adoption-related issues that Ringo has been working out. She gave me a very nice compliment regarding my ability to parent differently for three different children's needs. Isn't that what you are doing, too? Spending time researching (which I saw, elsewhere, that you were doing, s.) and thinking and writing about what your child needs is exactly the sign that you're doing it right. Right?
God, I hope so, because that's all I've got going for me lately!
Oh, A, I didn't read your great comment before I'd posted. (It was invisible, for some reason.) I love this: " [...] if they learn that there will be consequences if they don't listen on the second try (or whatever the limit is), I think they'll eventually start following directions as soon as they're asked." This is something we took really seriously with with Aurora--she'd want to be Rapunzel, though!--and Belle kind of just fell in line with her sis. We were big into counting. It worked for us, which may just be a function of our girls' personalities.
Aurora, Rapunzel, aren't they all the same? :)
No, M., the princesses are not all the same and I could tell you all of the details in minutia.
But, to get to the point at hand, I would add, for us, when we return home from any trip, "hell" could not accurately describe what we go through for up to two weeks. But our kids never transition well.
Also, like AcadeMama and Megs, I would remind you that in many cases the circumstances will dictate the response. Since Ringo has been home with us, we have realized the degree to which we need to shape his circumstances to allow him to adjust. We need to recognize his signs before he acts out rather than waiting for him to do so. For example, I know if he is around in the living room and I leave the room without taking him, he will walk up to one of the little chairs and stand on it, which we do not let him do right now because he has a tendency to fall, well, dive off of chairs & couches.
If we play with him and get him too excited, then he may not be able to control his emotion and try to pinch someone.
Finally, with the girls, when they need to get dressed, they need to get dressed (and they know it because we have had many fights over this). Because of the previous fights, then know that we can get them dressed or they can dress themselves, but those are the only options available to them.
Of course, I have two caveats on our trip:
First, remember, the girls were at their grandparents. They are different girls when they travel, maybe because of the constant attention they receive. But, for whatever reason, they do not fight as much when they are in a place other than their home. Hence, we went to the concert because we knew they would be better there than at home.
Second, if you only saw Belle not listen to me once, then you may not have been paying attention to her when we asked her to do things or we stopped asking her to do things. Either one could be the case.
Wow, lots of good comments. I was just popping in to say that Danger Mouse does. not. listen. The getting dressed in the morning scenario sounds awfully familiar (and we repeat it again at night...how can it be this hard to choose pajamas??)
My extremely helpful responses shift between yelling, threatening to sell her to the circus, and making her laugh, which usually breaks the power struggle.
Sigh... What a fascinating discussion!! I'm glad I'm coming a little late so I can read everyone's opinions (though I won't be really part of an ongoing discussion, probably. P.S. this is great, actually, because I'm slightly ashamed of being so inconsistent & "bad").
Why the sigh? Well, I hope you don't get distraught by my comment [which won't be helpful nor hopeful], but I sigh because I think that I have the oldest kids in this group of commenters -- 9.5 and 7, both boys and... I STILL have the same problems with the boys not listening. And the getting dressed example is CLASSICAL. sigh a million times.
Ditto on the losing one's patience, raising our voices (and the boys seriously raise their voices a lot WITH US at times too -- bad, bad, bad!). So... I haven't figured out yet how to make my boys listen more. My husband is doing way better than I because he's much more consistent, but consistency is almost an impossibility for ADHD me. :(
So, yeah, good luck with that, my friend. And while I agree with what others said regarding gender differences, I still think that girls can be naturally more attentive or obedient. But that's obviously not a rule!
I'm sure I could say more, but it's late and I just feel too depressed when I think of my bad parenting moments. :(
Thanks for all the input. First, I want to say that I realize things always look different from the outside. When it seems like other parents are having an easy time (or even just an easy day) to me, I fully realize I'm only seeing it from my perspective. Second, Archer and I talked about all of your suggestions, and we decided that Wild Man's not listening was the biggest thing for us to tackle. So we agreed to stop asking him to do something 18 times. Now we ask twice, and if he doesn't listen right away he either goes to time out or to his room, depending on his reaction. He spent a fair amount of time in time out on Friday evening, but by last night, he was doing things right when we asked. We're also working on butting out. I have a bad habit of pointing out that Archer isn't doing things the way we've agreed on right as Archer is disciplining, so I'm working on being more aware of that. Archer tends to say things like, "Wild Man, listen to your mother NOW!" when I'm talking to Wild Man, so he's working on that. We're also being firmer with Bear, who spent a fair amount of time sitting himself this weekend. He doesn't quite get it yet, but we were able to get him to stop jumping on Wild Man's bed after about 8 trips to time out (we make him sit for 1 minute).
As an aside, Wild Man and I also have project this week. We're going to make a poster board that has pictures of all the things he needs to do in the morning in the order he needs to do them in. I remembered that there is a similar board in his kindergarten room, which I've seen him consult on the days I volunteered there. This board helps keep him on task and reminds him what he needs to do next, so I think a similar board may help him do what he needs to do w/out us having to remind him.
oh, you guys are doing great. I have the hardest time in the universe being consistent, giving my terribly strong ADHD. I'm hating it more and more since I found out I have it, and I keep thinking about my whole life, particularly my childhood. Sigh.
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